Family Law: Custody Disputes - Ginger Murray

Sly- Joining my now divorce attorney, Ginger Murray, from Lawton and Cates. Divorce affects children and that’s where it gets sticky.

Ginger- I absolutely agree and protecting children and reducing trauma for families is the reason why I’ve stayed committed to this area of the law for 15 years.

Sly- It isn’t just to sock it to somebody?

Ginger- That is not the type of tactic I take, no.

Sly- Alright. You don’t want no holds barred win at all cost?

Ginger- Certainly I am there to make sure that the parents get the placement and custody that they deserve, but we talk at length about what’s in the children’s best interest and how we get there.

Sly- Does having children have to complicate a divorce? Is that automatic?

Ginger- It doesn’t have to but it often does. There are certainly parents who are able to recognize right away that although they can’t get along, they are both good parents for the children. I adore working with those families. That is a really easy job for me to do. Even then you need a lawyer so that you don’t mess up the paperwork, so that you don’t create problems that don’t need to be there.

Sly- Child placement, alright. Sometimes this gets confusing because sometimes a divorce leads to financial problems. Sometimes somebody needs to move to make more money. Do you get involved with that?

Ginger- Absolutely, I was just talking with one of the marketing folks here and for me some of the more difficult cases come from removal cases, where one parent needs to move where it’s beyond a car trip. You’re talking about airfare getting involved. That’s a really tough situation because you can have a situation where you have two really good parents but the economy requires them to live in households that are far apart. That is a tough scenario but the presumption is whatever the placement has been, that should continue.

Sly- We used to kind of use that blanket term, who gets custody. What does custody technically mean?

Ginger- Thanks for asking. That is something that people very often confuse. In the state of Wisconsin, custody means who makes major decisions. The statute goes on to tell us that major decisions are things like what religion if any will the child be, education: public or private, who’s going to sponsor the kid to get a driver’s license at 16, whether or not the child can get married or join the military before they’re 18. I think, but it’s not in the statute, body piercing and tattoos come into play because that’s pretty hard to undo. Custody means who gets to make those decisions. Our law says with a few exceptions, the presumption is that the parents are supposed to share joint legal custody. It is presumed to be in the child’s best interest for the parents to cooperate and make those decisions.

Sly- What is placement?

Ginger- Placement is where these kids at on a regular basis are. Whose home are they living in? Where are they?

Sly- When somebody hires you, do they generally concede that the spouse, even though they can’t stand them, deserves—you’re shaking your head.

Ginger- Absolutely not. Most of my clients come in and they say I’ve put up with this man or this woman for long enough. This has been horrific for me and they don’t do any favors for the children. I will tell you that at the beginning that the kids’ issues are really what have forced the client to come in.

Sly- Ginger Murray with us from Lawton and Cates. What’s your phone number at Lawton and Cates?

Ginger- Lawton and Cates phone number is 282-6200 and we have a website www.lawtoncates.com

Sly- If there is infidelity in a marriage, which happens from time to time, I don’t know if you’ve heard about that, can that affect child placement or custody?

Ginger- We talked a little bit last time about divorce, and infidelity is not a basis for divorce for no fault. On the one hand infidelity is not supposed to be an issue in the divorce. How one person’s significant other can get involved is if they’re being introduced to the children too soon, if that other significant person has some issues and shouldn’t be exposed to the children. I get phone calls and email inquiries and one of the questions was, “my ex now has a boyfriend who was court ordered not to spend time with his children.” Certainly if you’re bringing in new people who have child related issues, that’s now your issue.

Sly- What if one spouse has a sex change?

Ginger- I’ve dealt with this. You ask it as though I wouldn’t have. If they’re a good parent, they’re a good parent. We need to talk about what are their parenting skills and other issues are really not supposed to be in the forefront. That doesn’t mean that the other parent won’t bring the issue to the forefront, but the court’s decision should be based on the parenting abilities.

Sly- Ginger Murray here with us on talk radio 1670 WTDY. We talk with her and with Lawton and Cates because they are really good at dealing with really tough situations. It takes somebody that’s got a certain level of sensitivity to deal with people’s, well you’re not just dealing with legal issues, in some respects your skills as a human being come into play. I would be terrible at this.

Ginger- Well I enjoy it. I’m the rebel in the family. My dad is a psychologist, my brother is a psychologist, my mom works with social services, and I’m the rebel lawyer. But I studied psychology, I studied sociology. I learned about how you help people get along with people. And I truly take the approach that I’m here to reduce the trauma that’s going to be the result of the family crisis that you’re currently confronted with.

Sly- When you make a presumption about best interests of the children that is subjective in some cases right? We’re not talking about anything the legislature can write here. You’ve got to present a case to a judge to put your client in the best possible light.

Ginger- Absolutely. The scales of justice are blind but you can’t just have both parents hop on either side of the scale and it tells you who is the better parent and who is going to be looking out for the child’s best interest. The good news is that the laws that we currently have, have set up a pretty good routine on how we deal with these issues. We have mediators, we have family court counselors, and we have guardian ad litem that look out for the best interest of the children. We have a team of folks who are prepared to deal with this. You made mention of the new legislature and they will be bringing up new legislation again. They are looking to change the law so that it is required that the parents have equal placement. I will tell you that I personally do not believe that that is an appropriate law.

Sly- Really?

Ginger- Yeah, they’ve brought it up before.

Sly- Not all parents deserve equal placement.

Ginger- You’re singing to the choir, Sly, I absolutely agree. There are just some parents that aren’t equipped.

Sly- There are some people who are, you don’t have to say this I’ll say it, who are losers.

Ginger- There are parents who unfortunately are driven by the child support calculations more than their interest in their children.

Sly- Listen to that. That is amazing to hear that verbalized.

Ginger- Well unfortunately it’s a fact of life. Our statutes are set up so that child support is based on the amount of time that you have placement with your child. There are a lot of people I think, unfortunately, that are arguing for that 50/50 placement to try and avoid paying child support.

Sly- If you have 50/50 placement of the children and one spouse makes more than the other, do you necessarily get child support?

Ginger- The guidelines are set to guide you, there are grounds for deviation, but because one parent is making more, if there’s one child basically the calculation works like this mom pays 17% of her gross income or what she could be earning every night the child is with dad and pays 17% of his gross income of whatever he could be earning for every night the child is with mom. So if there is a disparity in income, there could be child support. There are plenty of parents that say, “Let’s take child support off the table.” The good parents say, “let’s take child support off the table, figure out what’s best for our kids, and we don’t have to have a child support order. Let’s talk about you pay for daycare and I keep the child on health insurance.”

Sly- Do you try to talk people out of it?

Ginger- I look at my client and what their needs are to support the child. Sometimes I have clients who are prepared to waive child support who financially shouldn’t be doing that.

Sly- If there is a child who doesn’t think either parent is representing their best interests in a court of law, do they have any redress?

Ginger- That is the purpose of the guardian ad litem. Any times moms and dads can’t agree, the court is required to appoint a guardian ad litem which is an attorney, experienced in family law, to look out for the child’s best interests. Their job is to make sure that the court is aware of the child’s wishes.

Sly- Have you had clients who want 50/50 custody, and they’re good parents, but the other spouse has been manipulative and turned them against them?

Ginger- There are two scenarios that fall into the situation that you just described. One is called parent alienation where one parent just alienates from the other parent. That is a Dickens of a case and you’ve got to bring in experts because what that looks like is one parent is saying, “Mom is doing and saying everything to make me look like the demon.” Mom says, “Dad’s been the demon. It’s just now coming to the forefront.” So you really have to bring in an expert to get at that. The second issue is oftentimes abuse is alleged. I do not want to diminish how often when abuse is alleged it’s true. There are also cases where abuse is alleged and it’s not true. Those are very difficult cases.

Sly- Grandparents’ rights?

Ginger- As it relates to divorce?

Sly- Yes.

Ginger- What you’re asking me is so victims have the right to be heard in the courts in domestic abuse? When there is domestic abuse or child abuse in divorces, the courts are required to investigate whether or not that exists. If it does, that is the exception. Now all of a sudden there is no longer the presumption that it should be shared placement. There is no longer the presumption that there should be joint custody.

Sly- But do grandparents have a right?

Ginger- Oh, I’m sorry I thought you said crime. You were asking about grandparents.

Sly- Yes.

Ginger- Absolutely. Grandparents are really, technically supposed to rely on their child, the parent of the children, to give them access to the grandchildren. There is an exception. When the parent is deceased or there is another situation where the grandparent has acted as the parent of the child, they can seek visitation which is a bit different than placement and custody but it gets them access to the grandchildren.

Sly- I just think about OJ’s children. I think about Michael Jackson’s children. Those are all cases that bring up very interesting questions. It’s a minefield out there. You want to hire somebody that not only has the legal skill but the judgment to be sensitive.

Ginger- I certainly agree with that. I offer initial consultations for free. I think it’s a valuable strategy. It allows me to meet the clients and the clients to meet me to see if we’re a good fit.

Sly- I would take the Sam Kinison approach, Ginger, which is why you do what you do and I do what I do.

Ginger- Well we’ll stick to those roles. I like it this way.

Sly- Your phone number?

Ginger- 282-6200

Sly- Alright. Lawton and Cates, Ginger Murray, thank you for joining us.